Thomas Crawford: This episode was a just a little dark. You have Carol, suddenly acting like a real homemaker, and seeming to enjoy it. Until you see her leave a fresh made cookie on Sam's grave. Then you realize there is some bubbling guilt brewing up. You have the gang infiltrate and act out their mercenary plan. I will admit the Saviors aren't good guys. However, stabbing guys in the head as they sleep… may be crossing some moral line. Then you have Glenn, who is torn about killing. However, ends up doing it to stop Heath from having to do the deed. Oh and there was an all-out gun battle, a room full of weed, and Maggie and Carol getting caught at the end.
First, can I just say this is probably the most halfcocked plan I've seen Rick and company come up with. So they know there is a compound. They get a sketch from Andy. It is a hallway and a room. He doesn't know how many Saviors are in the compound. There is no discussion about patrols outside the compound. They have no idea about roving patrols in the compound. Was Daryl being serious when he said they had done more with less?
The great idea to get in? They are going to get a walker head that looks like Gregory. They then will have Andy approach the guards around late night/early morning. While that happens, they are going to take out the guards, then covertly work their way through the building taking out the sleeping Saviors.
I got to admit, the part about the walker head was sort of cool. Rick making some alterations via his fist was funny. Come on though. How lucky was that? They find just the right age and fresh enough head to pass off as Gregory? What was the backup plan? I don't know, it just seemed a little too easy and fortunate. I think they could have found something better, though I'm not throwing out any ideas.
The layout of the compound. Really, they have a picture of one room and a hallway. They don't mention if there are multiple floors. They say there is one entrance. However there is no sweep to find the garage and parking lot in the back? The whole plan rests on taking out as many Saviors as possible, and getting to the armory. Though, they don't know where it is. From the looks of the compound from the outside, there are a lot of rooms. Again, this seems really halfcocked and not thought out by the group.
I admit, the execution was really cool. Taking out the guards quick and quiet was straight out of some old commando movies. Though once again, where was the planning? They have Maggie and Carol, two people watching the perimeter? Then they have Tara, Gabriel, and Jesus watching the escape route. I got to admit, I didn't like this from the get go. Again, they didn't sweep for patrols or guards. Why didn't they take a walkie talkie from one of the guards, and listen in to see if anyone was checking in? Again, this plan had more luck involved than skill. Don't get me wrong, it was a great sequence, but overall sloppy for our group.
I'm going to lay off the plan, as I've complained enough. What about Carol? She seems to be showing some serious signs of guilt through this episode. Where did her relationship with Tobin come from? I know this is a time jump. However, when you have a major character get into a relationship, there should be some build up. Nope, she delivers some cookies and flirts a little. Which was pretty cute. Then she joins him before the mission for a smoke and a kiss. Again, where did this come from? Am I sounding like the whiners of Richonne happening out of the blue? I'm just saying, I really think this is out of the blue.
The guilt thing is really starting to eat at her. She has a kill list and has the number 18 circled. It seems pretty obvious that she has a running tally of the people she has had to kill to survive. Many people are asking why now? Why is she suddenly feeling the guilt after killing for several seasons? Why is she going from badass to reflective?
I think that has to do with the time jump. She has found herself in a place where she can really reflect on what she has had to do. Throughout most the show, the main thing has been running from one danger into another. Now, for at least a couple months, she has just been able to focus on things that she probably did before TWD world rose. She is cooking, cleaning, talking to the neighbors. Granted it isn't exactly the same. However, I think she is really starting to get a feel about where she was at one point in her life, and what she has done since then.
I think she blames herself for Sam's death. I guess it was implied, how she said he'd be ripped apart by monsters, and he got ripped apart by monsters. I'm not sure one hundred percent if it is just that guilt, or the fact that she is tired of losing kids. Regardless of how annoying Sam was, we know Carol liked the kid.
She has lost a lot, and had to do some horrible things. I think the fact that Sam was another kid that she had an affinity for really is making her crack. Notice how protective she is of Maggie? It isn't like they are best friends or anything all of a sudden. It is because Maggie is pregnant. I guess you could take that either way you look at it. All in all, I don't think this is the time for Carol to start having doubts and bouts of guilt. I'm just saying, about to kick in the door to a Savior compound. This was bad timing.
On to Glenn. I am a little confused. Was this the first time Glenn has murdered someone? I'm trying to remember if he was part of the Terminus massacre in the church. And wasn't he involved in the prison fight way back when?
Again, I might be off, let me know. I think the issue is the difference between firing on someone who is trying to kill you, and stabbing someone in their sleep. We know the Saviors are bad, that is a given. However, that is still a leap of faith to just start stabbing guys in the head. This is making me start to wonder how this will affect Glenn throughout the rest of the season.
He did do a typical Glenn thing, and took Heath's guy. That was cool, but also very Glenn. However, this scene just seemed to have more to it than Glenn going through with a choice he had issues with. Is this some line that the group is crossing because Glenn is doing it? Is it foreshadowing upcoming doom for certain members of the cast? Maybe I am just being dumb. However, you got to admit there was more to this scene than just a moral issue he was having.
I'm going to throw it over to you because this is getting long. I have yet to talk about Morgan, what the hell? I also think we need to talk about Father Gabriel, and is he still a Priest? Also, it is probably a good thing to touch on Tara and Abraham, both who seem to have some issues in their relationships. So I'm going to send it your way, what do you think?
Kelen Conley: Glenn has never killed a living person. During the Governor’s first prison attack, he may have been firing on the Woodburians (heh) but I don’t think he mortally wounded anyone. During the second attack, he was recovering from the prison plague, so he wasn’t involved. At Terminus, I think everyone was shown killing people other than Glenn. At the church, Rick, Abraham, Sasha, and Michonne took care of Gareth and his man eaters (heh). And of course, when he should have killed Nicholas, he didn’t, so he got to spend a few days under a dumpster for it.
I wish they would’ve paired Glenn up with anyone besides Heath (who I’m actually starting to like more and I hope he has a bigger role in Season 7). As Michonne said to him in “Thank You”, Heath hasn’t really seen anything yet. Killing all the walkers in Alexandria is one thing but killing a human being, especially a sleeping one, is an entirely different matter. While Heath came through when the two got cornered in the armory, the fact that he didn’t stab anyone while Glenn did could be foreshadowing.
Not that I think they’ll kill Glenn at this point. I think he needs to renamed Jesus after his death defying actions thus far this season.
It doesn’t change my opinion of Glenn because if anything, he joined in with the attack on the Saviors to protect Maggie and the baby. Being proactive is a good thing when it comes to protecting your family, even if it involved murdering people you’re presuming to be guilty in their sleep.
I. Do. Not. Like. This. Storyline. With. Carol. They’ve taken one of the baddest motherfuckers in the TWD world and cut her off at the knees. I don’t think this is about Sam. I think this is because she saw the Wolf sacrifice himself for Denise after she shot him. I think this is all Morgan’s fault because he said there was good in people and dammit, that Wolf may have proved him right. That is her major malfunction right now. I think she is realizing that she has become this killing machine and being in Alexandria has given her time to arrive at that point. There hasn't been a time until now where she could stop and think about how many people she's had to kill.
I don't think too much of her relationship with Tobin. She just wants to feel something other than guilt and he offers that. I wouldn't expect Carol to let herself develop real feelings for anyone after Ed that's not named Daryl and I feel like that relationship has sailed (heh).
She's absolutely right about Maggie though. We just watched Maggie step into more of a Deanna role in her negotiations with Gregory and the Hilltop; it would've made sense for one of the new figureheads to stay in Alexandria. The fact that she wanted to rush into the compound to help was completely stupid as well. I 100% agree with Carol… I just wish they would've both had sense enough not to get caught.
Bottom line: I need my silver haired ass kicker back sooner than later. I get how one dimensional she's become in her role as the most dangerous person out of all the Alexandrians… BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO MESS WITH A CHARACTER THAT'S CLEARLY PERFECT IN EVERY WAY.
So yeah, this plan. First and foremost, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but Morgan was right. As lucky as this mission has been so far (other than Maggie and Carol), and as proactive as I like our town to be when it comes to threats, and as important as it was for them to follow through after they made the Hilltop deal, this mission was suicide. The Saviors are the bad guys here but I really wish someone would have thought this through. It made for a great episode because the whole squad could have walked into an ambush considering what little they knew of the compound and instead, they actually cleared the whole place with no losses.
For the first time, I was watching them murder Saviors in their sleep and I felt really sick on my stomach. I even worried that this might be the moment where I couldn't keep watching TWD. But I felt much better once the Saviors started waking up to be murdered. At least they were in a semi-fair fight then.
I have to say that I loved the moment of Rick punching the walker head in the face. If there's something the show is getting right in the latter half of Season 6, it's subtly showing Rick Grimes doing Rick Grimes things without making too much of a big deal out of it.
Can we talk about how cold blooded Abraham is though? He breaks up with Rosita a day or so before their attack and then somehow isn't gunned down by her out of revenge. Not that there was going to be a right time to break up with her but I found that to be pretty ballsy. And Rosita was pretty professional about everything as well even when she confronted Carol about Morgan attempting to save the Wolf. I just found Rosita’s presence to be one more thing they didn’t factor in before they attacked the compound.
Our heroes were very lucky. Almost too lucky. Have to say that there was foreshadowing all over the place in this episode. But at least Daryl got his motorcycle back because I know that I’ve been waiting to see the resolution of that plot hole with bated breath ever since we last saw Dwight and Sherry way back in “Always Accountable”. But seriously, the fact that Maggie and Carol are the Saviors’s captives now makes me think that there are more Saviors than the (now dead) ones at the compound. And that makes me think that the Alexandrians failed to accomplish anything with their little suicide mission.
TC: I think it is safe to say that the attack was lucky. However, the ending where Maggie and Carol got caught was very unlucky. I'm pretty sure we agree on that point. I'm going to stop talking about it by saying that I think the group's luck will start to run out.
I will say that I agree, Abraham has more guts than brains it seems. I understand having a thing for Sasha, however, I’m not sure I'd just up and leave it like that with Rosita. Let's be honest. We have seen some of what she is capable of doing in her appearances. Abraham obviously knows what she is capable of spending so much time with her. I'm a bit surprised they didn't get into a bit of a fight over the abrupt break up.
I will also admit that I am a bit biased on this issue. No offense to Sasha, but I don't think I'd leave Rosita for her. A man is entitled to his opinion. I think Abraham was wrong on this choice.
Before anyone thinks I'm a pig, (which I may be) there is more to it. There is a history with Rosita. She has been through some rough times with Abraham, and always had his back. Not only that, she seems to be a little more adjusted and grounded at this point than Sasha. Is he remembering how out of it Sasha has been lately?
There is a possible excuse. As Abraham said, he thought Rosita was the last woman on earth, and found out she wasn't. Why I don't want to belittle a budding relationship, I think the "new" factor could be playing a part. There is also the excitement factor of Sasha being a little more unstable than Rosita. Again, this could be an excuse, but a bad one in my opinion.
Overall, I have the feeling this is a gimmick by the writers to build up the characters. There are a lot of characters, and romantic conflict tends to be a great way to grab attention. I'm not saying this is the case, but sort of feels like it. Instead of building up and showing a depth to the relationship between Abraham and Rosita, a lot of it is implied. This abrupt breakup feels like an easy way to put a spotlight on Sasha and Abraham.
The downside though is what is going to happen to Rosita? She hasn't been a major player at all in the series really. She has very little character development, and has been referred to as "eye candy" on more than one occasion. I know she has had some things going on, but I wonder if this is going to lead to more development for her, or less.
On to Tara and Denise. While I like this coupling a little more, the scene seems really like bad news. Anytime in a horror genre, someone says I will tell you later, it means bad things are going to happen to someone. This sort of had me a little on edge. I'm wondering who is going to bite the dust so to speak.
I love Tara, and I really like how they have built her character. I also admit I haven't been a huge fan of Denise. I guess the coupling makes sense, yet felt forced. I know I've mentioned this more than a few times. That being said, I really wish we could have seen some of the time jump and the relationship grow.
Did Tara and Denise build some chemistry? Are they comfortable with each other and is it natural? This is one of those things I despise about long time jumps. It is just too hard sometimes to rationalize how things end up when a show comes back.
Anyways, I will say I see dark clouds on the horizon for this couple. Again, the rule in any horror story, which yes, technically TWD is, is to never say certain things. A person never should say, "that was easy", "could be worse", "see you later", or "I will tell you later". The question is, who is going to be on the chopping block.
I have to agree with you, I agree with Morgan too. I think talking to the Saviors may not be the right move, but Rick chose the wrong move. I will admit that the episode was exciting, yet I listed a ton of reasons about how I disagree with how it went down.
I'm also wondering what the deal is with the cage. I mean, it is obvious Morgan thinks there will be a need for it in the future. However, is it for when he tries to talk to another character like the W guy? Is it something he thinks the community needs for when things get out of control? Perhaps he envisions a future where he may need to lock up Rick? Who knows for sure, though the last one would be an interesting twist. Not sure how that would be pulled off, but could make for an interesting story.
I guess in the end I did like this episode. There was action, some drama, and it was a good watch. That being said, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. The fact that Maggie was there should have been a glaring warning that there was going to be trouble.
I also am pretty sure that we have no idea how big the Saviors group are at this point. It is quite possible that they have a large group, and obviously a lot of firepower. I get the feeling that Rick and the group just kicked a hornet's nest with this mission.
KC: The hornet’s nest description is perfect.
If you remember, Eastman had a cage that he held Crighton Dallas Wilton in until he starved to death. While Morgan would rather do anything than starve a man to death in there, I think it’s more because of his failure (in his eyes) to help The W Man. Denise might have told him the Wolf saved her before he was devoured but with a proper containment system, Morgan probably feels the Wolf would still have a chance to turn his life around. A chance that Eastman afforded him. I believe it will come into play later in the series but I wouldn’t expect to see it again before the end of Season 6.
Your takes on Tara and Denise are great as well. I actually developed an affinity for Denise after her original appearances, maybe because she was able to help Carl and develop some true confidence. I would have to guess that Tara won’t be coming back from her run with Heath. I know that Alanna Masterson was pregnant while filming her scenes in Season 6, so it wouldn’t surprise me to see Heath return in a later episode with no Tara. While I’d much rather have Tara be the one who lives on, the importance of keeping the doctor alive and well would make her death the obvious choice.
I also felt like that whole scene between the two of them was bungled and their relationship does feel forced. I feel like it comes from a place where the writers thought, “We haven’t had Tara kiss a girl in a while. We better remind everyone that she’s a lesbian!” I feel like there is more to Tara than just who she’s attracted to sexually, so this pairing is not one of my favorites.
I think Sasha having lost it a little bit is what attracted Abraham to her in the first place. While Rosita has been with Abe for a long time, she can’t comprehend the headspace that he’s been in with his family and dealing with Reg’s pointless death. I think that throwing away a long-term relationship (especially before a major mission) is a mistake but I can see a little where he’s coming from. Rosita is the safe choice, the known choice if you will. Sasha offers him something that he will rarely find in TWD world: something exciting and new. A chance to really get to know a different person/woman. A chance for a fresh start. The way he went about it was completely wrong. But that’s what’s at stake for him here; I don’t think it’s just about the nookie, to borrow a word from the great Fred Durst.
I don’t put Sasha at blame; she could have succumbed to Big Red’s advances immediately (other characters who would have come to mind) but she told him he had things to take care of first. Hell, she still hasn’t as I doubt Abraham and Rosita’s breakup was on her mind with all the killing of SLEEPING PEOPLE SHE HAD TO DO (I still hate that plan). I just think she’s caught in the middle. It’ll be interesting to see if Rosita retaliates.
And I really see Rosita falling into the background, almost as much of a minor character as a random Alexandrian may be, only used when the writers need us to remember that she used to be a part of the previous group or Abe’s girlfriend. I truly hope they don’t hook her up with Eugene out of pity for the nerdiest of our heroes either. I will say that I bet she falls to the background and when they are ready to kill her off, they’ll give her some major time in an episode or 2, just for her to die tragically.
I do have to give Rosita major props for not jeopardizing the entire mission by being that jealous ex that you and I obviously expected her to be.
I want to spend some time talking about my favorite part of the episode: Gabriel. Earlier in the episode, RIck warned Gabriel that this wasn’t the mission or the time to have misgivings about killing. Gabriel assured him he was ready, which went along with his redemption storyline that we’ve been watching since the start of Season 6. He stepped up big time when it came to protecting Judith during the walker invasion and he firmly stepped into the role of town asset, a complete 180 from his prior role of town coward.
His big moment towards episode’s end might be one of my favorite in the entire series. Tara had already wounded the unknown Savior and chances were, he would have bled out and turned at some point in his escape. But my man Gabriel stepped up to the plate and cranked out a grand slam by not only putting the Savior down for good but he cold bloodedly recited John 14:2 while he did, making sure that we knew he was still a man of the cloth... just different. Maybe I’m just excited at the possibilities of a strong black character on the show besides Michonne. Morgan still won’t kill and Tyreese didn’t want to kill and we’re not going to talk about Noah and Bob’s main storylines were the pursuit of a bottle and later Sasha (let’s hope his fate isn’t foreshadowing for Abraham!). I just think they could really go places with him now that he finally understands what TWD world is all about now. It’s a shame it took him so long to get there but at least the only true death he caused (albeit indirectly) was Bob’s when he took the group down into that flooded basement.
I can only imagine things switch to focus on Maggie and Carol next episode from the previews but it wouldn’t be the first time we get completely swerved in order to drag out a cliffhanger. I highly doubt that something will happen to either of them but for the record, my money is on Carol and her self-doubt doing her in IF something were to go down. I think we’re on the right path as we build to the Season 6 finale, with this episode and it’s cliffhanger. I just fear what we see at season’s end.